I was asked about "magnesium oil", is it any good ? I wasn't aware of solubility in oil, and it's not as such, it's actually a saturated solution of the chloride:
"... Magnesium oil is made from a mixture of magnesium chloride flakes and water. When these two substances are combined, the resulting liquid has an oily feel, but isnât technically an oil. Magnesium chloride is an easy-to-absorb form of magnesium that may be able to raise levels of this nutrient within the body when applied topically to the skin."
One additional aspect to consider is drug interactions with magnesium. There are quite a few, mostly issues with absorption if taken at the same time. It's generally best to offset magnesium from meds by about two hours.
Also - you briefly addressed migraine and magnesium. One of the strongest proponents of magnesium remediation in migraine sufferers has been Dr. Alexander Mauskop. (He administers IV magnesium infusions in his office for intractable migraine attacks.)
I forgot to mention, re divided doses - a nephrologist article recommended/uses 400 mg elemental magnesium three times a day when the kidneys are dumping magnesium, but the patient isn't at the dialysis stage yet.
Kidney doctors are the specialists that know the most about electrolytes and health in my opinion. Nephrologists have my respect in a way that no other medical specialty has. *Edit - that was not at all about Carolyn Dean - I'm a big fan of any doctors writing about magnesium, and have linked to her work in prior blogs. The nephrologist point is more general - of the specialties, reading across Pubmed, the nephrologists understand the whole body and electrolytes better than others. Typical treatment in research or textbooks about electrolytes and hydration is that it is just about sodium and potassium, not about the magnesium and calcium balance too. We lose them all in sweat but sports drinks only have sodium and potassium usually. Pedialyte has magnesium too.
Thanks for the mention Doorless Carp, but I really wish you had contacted me too. The citations you found, and Carolyn Dean's work, seems to have missed the major point about topical use of magnesium - that we may be designed to absorb it in our bathing and drinking water, but her liquid supplement product would be better absorbed for the same reason, is my impression. . . .
>> Carp are swimming in magnesium water and drinking tiny amounts of Mg with the river or pond water. Humans evolved in an environment rich in liquid with magnesium. Our intestines and kidneys dump magnesium readily and preferentially absorb calcium which is more scarce in the diet. We evolved in an environment with magnesium rich bathing and drinking water and I think the body expects that environment still.
Logically, to me, if a critically essential nutrient isn't being readily absorbed in the gut from dietary sources, then it must have been available to us through another route. We don't get our daily oxygen from our food intake or gut absorption, maybe we aren't intended to get all of our magnesium through our gut either. Nature doesn't make mistakes. Our food supply isn't what it used to be, but, the kidneys and gut are set up to save calcium and waste magnesium - that logically suggests to me that the body expects to have lots and lots of magnesium and to have less access to calcium. ..... so how could that be true? If we were spending time in magnesium rich water and drinking it also. The gut wouldn't have to handle a crazy high dose amount of magnesium from crushed rock, it would be getting tiny amounts all day long - a very divided dose.
I briefly tried to get interest going in Epsom salt footsoaks for emergency rooms or homeless shelters or nursing homes.
A liquid mineral supplement meant to be added to a quart of water and drunk over the day would be providing a very "divided" dose which the body might be absorbing little bits of all day instead of it causing a TRP channel shift of fluid and 'dumping' like watery stools.
The ridiculously low Tolerable Upper Limit in the US was set with guesstimates and more research was supposed to have been done, AND the only negative, the only risk involved, is the watery stool effect. Which is bad, because it lasts all day, not just one watery stool after taking a Mg oxide, or staying in the bath too long (can happen). But it is hardly deadly unless you don't understand what is happening and cause yourself daily fluid loss by continuing a supplement that isn't being absorbed >> and 'watery stool' is more descriptive than 'diarrhea'.
It is not the contents of the intestines blasting out, it is body fluid being suddenly dumped into the intestines due to TRP or calcium channels having been opened by the influx of ionic magnesium from a supplement (or too long in the Mg bath). CK Masterjohn knows more about this, he explained it to me on Twitter once, I think, or maybe I read it in one of his articles.
Regarding topical magnesium chloride lotions/soaps etc - I agree, they do not seem that effective and that is where a lot of research funding went - towards product development rather than testing baths. The 20 minute bath is very effective with Epsom salt or Mg chloride for my muscle cramp and mood symptoms. Whether a person is sulfate sensitive is important to know though, because the Mg sulfate bath will cause symptom of sulfate excess in a sensitive person. Baths are just so fast and helpful for muscle cramps or pain. It is getting everywhere in the body much faster than a dietary supplement that may or may not be well absorbed. As I understand it, the acidity of the intestines make it difficult for the magnesium ion to not precipitate out instead of staying in an absorbable ionic form.
Also vitamin D encourages the intestines to preferentially absorb calcium over magnesium, and the kidneys preferentially hold onto calcium while readily dumping magnesium.
Regarding topical products, though, I had a tip in my replies about using DMSO in the lotion mix, to increase absorption, and I tried that with Mg Chloride in a coconut based body lotion and it really does seem to help my mother quite a bit. She has Alzheimer's and refuses to do baths/hand or foot soaks and doesn't really like body lotion either, but will accept that better than trying to do the handsoaks - we were able to do those for a while. I should try again. Percentage of body surface - can you apply the lotion over most of the body, or just the hands? >> needs to be over more of the skin pores and hair follicles. A bath is better than a lower leg soak, which is better than a foot only soak, which is better than a hands only soak --> my impression.
I think genetically I and she doesn't have TRPM ion channel function in our intestines and we really need the topical source over any dietary type of supplement.
4. Chandrasekaran NC, Sanchez WY, Mohammed YH, et al., Permeation of topically applied Magnesium ions through human skin is facilitated by hair follicles., Magnes Res. 2016 Jun 1;29(2):35-42. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27624531 (4)
Yes, thanks. I am working on something now about this topic but combined with a Jack Kruse interview I had been working on. Frogs and tadpoles will be the aquatic representative in it.
Excellent information you have made available, thank you! I had not realised that taking magnesium with food helped absorption I have been taking my supplements when fasting. I will also take my magnesium when taking my probiotic, excellent article and will read again more slowly.
Thank you! I was the same, taking my glycinate with a spoon of kefir first thing in the morning. Now I take it late evening, and it can help with sleep too.
I agree the L-Threonate results were such a downer (no pun intended :)) So now Iâm buying magnesium malate and having my son take it with kombucha probiotic drinks (with 2 drops of vitamin D & k2) to help with his depression- does this seem right?
Unless you are sulfate sensitive, yes, full bath is my method and recommendation. A footsoak helps but not as much as a full immersion. Use magnesium chloride if a racing heart rate occurs - that is a symptom of sulfate excess. Magnesium excess acutely would cause a slow heart rate.
I was asked about "magnesium oil", is it any good ? I wasn't aware of solubility in oil, and it's not as such, it's actually a saturated solution of the chloride:
"... Magnesium oil is made from a mixture of magnesium chloride flakes and water. When these two substances are combined, the resulting liquid has an oily feel, but isnât technically an oil. Magnesium chloride is an easy-to-absorb form of magnesium that may be able to raise levels of this nutrient within the body when applied topically to the skin."
https://www.healthline.com/health/magnesium-oil-benefits
One additional aspect to consider is drug interactions with magnesium. There are quite a few, mostly issues with absorption if taken at the same time. It's generally best to offset magnesium from meds by about two hours.
https://www.mgpedia.org/raise-my-magnesium-levels/drug-interactions
Also - you briefly addressed migraine and magnesium. One of the strongest proponents of magnesium remediation in migraine sufferers has been Dr. Alexander Mauskop. (He administers IV magnesium infusions in his office for intractable migraine attacks.)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22426836/
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1586/14737175.9.3.369
Thank you. Part 1 raised the subject of interactions, ironically, as the cardiologists were objecting to such meddling.
I forgot to mention, re divided doses - a nephrologist article recommended/uses 400 mg elemental magnesium three times a day when the kidneys are dumping magnesium, but the patient isn't at the dialysis stage yet.
Kidney doctors are the specialists that know the most about electrolytes and health in my opinion. Nephrologists have my respect in a way that no other medical specialty has. *Edit - that was not at all about Carolyn Dean - I'm a big fan of any doctors writing about magnesium, and have linked to her work in prior blogs. The nephrologist point is more general - of the specialties, reading across Pubmed, the nephrologists understand the whole body and electrolytes better than others. Typical treatment in research or textbooks about electrolytes and hydration is that it is just about sodium and potassium, not about the magnesium and calcium balance too. We lose them all in sweat but sports drinks only have sodium and potassium usually. Pedialyte has magnesium too.
Great advice from the experts. Thanks.
Thanks for the mention Doorless Carp, but I really wish you had contacted me too. The citations you found, and Carolyn Dean's work, seems to have missed the major point about topical use of magnesium - that we may be designed to absorb it in our bathing and drinking water, but her liquid supplement product would be better absorbed for the same reason, is my impression. . . .
>> Carp are swimming in magnesium water and drinking tiny amounts of Mg with the river or pond water. Humans evolved in an environment rich in liquid with magnesium. Our intestines and kidneys dump magnesium readily and preferentially absorb calcium which is more scarce in the diet. We evolved in an environment with magnesium rich bathing and drinking water and I think the body expects that environment still.
Logically, to me, if a critically essential nutrient isn't being readily absorbed in the gut from dietary sources, then it must have been available to us through another route. We don't get our daily oxygen from our food intake or gut absorption, maybe we aren't intended to get all of our magnesium through our gut either. Nature doesn't make mistakes. Our food supply isn't what it used to be, but, the kidneys and gut are set up to save calcium and waste magnesium - that logically suggests to me that the body expects to have lots and lots of magnesium and to have less access to calcium. ..... so how could that be true? If we were spending time in magnesium rich water and drinking it also. The gut wouldn't have to handle a crazy high dose amount of magnesium from crushed rock, it would be getting tiny amounts all day long - a very divided dose.
References from this post about topical absorption of Mg are included at the end of this reply: https://transcendingsquare.com/2019/02/19/epsom-salt-footsoaks/
I briefly tried to get interest going in Epsom salt footsoaks for emergency rooms or homeless shelters or nursing homes.
A liquid mineral supplement meant to be added to a quart of water and drunk over the day would be providing a very "divided" dose which the body might be absorbing little bits of all day instead of it causing a TRP channel shift of fluid and 'dumping' like watery stools.
The ridiculously low Tolerable Upper Limit in the US was set with guesstimates and more research was supposed to have been done, AND the only negative, the only risk involved, is the watery stool effect. Which is bad, because it lasts all day, not just one watery stool after taking a Mg oxide, or staying in the bath too long (can happen). But it is hardly deadly unless you don't understand what is happening and cause yourself daily fluid loss by continuing a supplement that isn't being absorbed >> and 'watery stool' is more descriptive than 'diarrhea'.
It is not the contents of the intestines blasting out, it is body fluid being suddenly dumped into the intestines due to TRP or calcium channels having been opened by the influx of ionic magnesium from a supplement (or too long in the Mg bath). CK Masterjohn knows more about this, he explained it to me on Twitter once, I think, or maybe I read it in one of his articles.
Regarding topical magnesium chloride lotions/soaps etc - I agree, they do not seem that effective and that is where a lot of research funding went - towards product development rather than testing baths. The 20 minute bath is very effective with Epsom salt or Mg chloride for my muscle cramp and mood symptoms. Whether a person is sulfate sensitive is important to know though, because the Mg sulfate bath will cause symptom of sulfate excess in a sensitive person. Baths are just so fast and helpful for muscle cramps or pain. It is getting everywhere in the body much faster than a dietary supplement that may or may not be well absorbed. As I understand it, the acidity of the intestines make it difficult for the magnesium ion to not precipitate out instead of staying in an absorbable ionic form.
Also vitamin D encourages the intestines to preferentially absorb calcium over magnesium, and the kidneys preferentially hold onto calcium while readily dumping magnesium.
Regarding topical products, though, I had a tip in my replies about using DMSO in the lotion mix, to increase absorption, and I tried that with Mg Chloride in a coconut based body lotion and it really does seem to help my mother quite a bit. She has Alzheimer's and refuses to do baths/hand or foot soaks and doesn't really like body lotion either, but will accept that better than trying to do the handsoaks - we were able to do those for a while. I should try again. Percentage of body surface - can you apply the lotion over most of the body, or just the hands? >> needs to be over more of the skin pores and hair follicles. A bath is better than a lower leg soak, which is better than a foot only soak, which is better than a hands only soak --> my impression.
I think genetically I and she doesn't have TRPM ion channel function in our intestines and we really need the topical source over any dietary type of supplement.
Regarding research on topical absorption:
1. GrĂśber U, Werner T, Vormann J, Kisters K. Myth or Reality-Transdermal Magnesium?. Nutrients. 2017;9(8):813. Published 2017 Jul 28. doi:10.3390/nu9080813 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5579607/
reference 13 from (1):
2. Epsom Salt Council. [(accessed on 1 October 2015)]; Available online: http://www.epsomsaltcouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/report_on_absorption_of_magnesium_sulfate.pdf.
4. Chandrasekaran NC, Sanchez WY, Mohammed YH, et al., Permeation of topically applied Magnesium ions through human skin is facilitated by hair follicles., Magnes Res. 2016 Jun 1;29(2):35-42. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27624531 (4)
Would you want to be a guest co-writer for a future post? Nothing specific planned yet, but it would be great if you could.
Yes, thanks. I am working on something now about this topic but combined with a Jack Kruse interview I had been working on. Frogs and tadpoles will be the aquatic representative in it.
Cyprinus Carpio & JD - GMTA
Wow! Worthy of a Substack of its own. Thanks for adding to the knowledge pool.
Excellent information you have made available, thank you! I had not realised that taking magnesium with food helped absorption I have been taking my supplements when fasting. I will also take my magnesium when taking my probiotic, excellent article and will read again more slowly.
Thank you! I was the same, taking my glycinate with a spoon of kefir first thing in the morning. Now I take it late evening, and it can help with sleep too.
Thanx as always, DC. Debonking the threonate scam was big for me.
Also, you have the best gifs on Substack
Also also, TYVM for boosting my friend Jen @denutrients
I agree the L-Threonate results were such a downer (no pun intended :)) So now Iâm buying magnesium malate and having my son take it with kombucha probiotic drinks (with 2 drops of vitamin D & k2) to help with his depression- does this seem right?
Where I am, GT's kombucha is the only option unless I make my own (which I haven't in several years). Take care when buying supplements: https://cheapthoughts.substack.com/p/exposing-consolidation-in-the-nutritional
Thanks! Glycinate is in my daily stack, but whatever you take you will be looking after your brain.
I've been doing epsom salt footbaths for years.
Perhaps it's time to soak my head?
Better get a snorkle!
Unless you are sulfate sensitive, yes, full bath is my method and recommendation. A footsoak helps but not as much as a full immersion. Use magnesium chloride if a racing heart rate occurs - that is a symptom of sulfate excess. Magnesium excess acutely would cause a slow heart rate.
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